Thursday, November 10, 2011

Swiss Guns

Normally, the Swiss are fairly law abiding, but in this case the service rifle was owned by a man who had several previous convictions for threatening behaviour and property damage before he shot his girlfriend in the head with his army assault rifle.

The Swiss have been debating the propriety of keeping the service rifles in the home for some time. There was a referendum held earlier this year about changing the law that resulted in a rejection of proposals to change the current laws.
"If the police have any doubts about how dangerous an individual is, there must be zero tolerance,” said police inspector and Swiss National Party national councillor Yvan Perrin to newspaper Le Matin.

"It's very simple: when someone is involved in a [criminal] case, the police have to determine whether this person is fit to own a gun. Then they must communicate their decision both to justice officials and the army," he said.

Denis Froidevaux, vice president of the Swiss Association of Military Officers, expressed a similar sentiment, saying people convicted on threat charges should not be allowed to possess firearms, “even if it’s just as a precaution.” But he said the decision should be made by justice officials rather than the police.

"This case raises questions about state responsibility”, criminologist Martin Killias told the newspaper, wondering if authorities have not been “negligent.” “Switzerland is too soft when it comes to weapons,” he said.
While the militia tradition still exists in Switzerland (unlike the US) and there is a similar attitude towards their guns to the US, the attitude there is much more pragmatic:
The issue of trust is key to the debate. “The Swiss system is based on trust,” so “someone who violates the law should not be rewarded with trust and, therefore, should be deprived of his [army] weapon,” said Liberal Party national councillor Isabel Morat.

The problem for inspector Perrin is that “there is still a taboo around army weapons.” And he added: “They say that every good solider should keep one at home, but above all, it is a weapon that can kill, let’s not forget that.”
Got that? but above all, it is a weapon that can kill, let’s not forget that.

21 comments:

  1. But, but, but, that's Switzerland and everybody knows they're commies and hate freedom.

    The Swiss, as you point out, actually have a well regulated militia.

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  2. Democommie,

    Actually, Switzerland is often held up as an example of a European nation that has good gun laws. The problem is that it's becoming more and more European in its approach.

    One shining example in Europe, at least for the moment, is the Czech Republic. They have a thriving firearms industry and private ownership and concealed carry are allowed--with a license, 'tis true, but give them credit for what they have achieved.

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  3. The Swiss, as you point out, actually have a well regulated militia.

    And after you leave the militia they give you your firearm, sans automatic function but otherwise fully functional.

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  4. So, you boyz are all good with compulsory military service for two years and annual campouts until you're at least 30? Oh, my bad, I'm sure that you didn't necessarily mean that you really wanted the Swiss program, just the "we kin haz our gunz" part at the end. Okey-doke.

    Illegally held firearms, held by LGO's in the Czech Republic are estimated to be something between several hundreds of thousands to more than a million. Lots of criminals there, I guess.

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  5. I hate to burst your bubble, but Switzerland has tighter firearms laws than the US.

    Buying a firearm requires a Waffenerwerbsschein (weapon acquisition permit). This permit allows the purchase of one firearm.

    Weapons acquired from an individual in the last ten years (which did not require a weapon acquisition permit) have to be registered. As a central weapons register was politically impractical, the authorities hoped to get an overview of the market through this registration requirement.

    Ultimately, weapons are under government control in Switzerland, unlike the US.

    Greg Camp, sorry, but Switzerland has the reputation for having "near US levels" of gun violence despite their level of gun control. It helps to do your search outside the US to find it described as such.

    And know either German or French.

    Incorrect, Thomas, one has to buy their service weapon--it is not given to the person on completion of service. Additionally, one would have to obtain a have a Waffenerwerbsschein (weapon acquisition permit) to buy the firearm. This permit is not granted automatically and one can be disabled from purchasing a weapon.

    I should add that the practise of offering the weapon to serivce members after completion of service is also coming under fire after the mass shooting in Zug where 14 people were shot dead.

    The Swiss defence ministry estimates that misuse of army weapons may occur “four or five” times a year. And it is firmly dealt with. At least twice in recent years people who had started taking pot shots from their balcony were simply shot by police marksmen. A few people asked questions, but any fuss quickly died down. In fact, the number of incidents may be higher. In some cantons, officials have admitted that incidents involving army rifles are kept quiet, at times in tacit agreement with the local press, so that others do not get similar murderous or suicidal ideas.

    Maybe it's their gun control.

    Or at least form of gun control.

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  6. Laci the Dog,

    Excuse me for being unclear. I meant to say that Switzerland is often cited by gun rights advocates as having good laws, but the reality is that it really is much farther along toward control than we are. In other words, the Swiss used to be a good country for guns, but they're going astray these days.

    I feel sorry for the Swiss, but they're experiencing a sad truth. A strong and well-armed nation can always be brought down from within.

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  7. Sorry, but Swiss Gun laws have been strict for at least the past 20 years. I know that the weapons permits were issued by the Cantons at one time, but permits were required. Not to mention handguns were required to be registered.

    I can look up the law since I have a book that was prepared by the Library of Congress on comparative firearms laws from 1990.

    Unlike the US, the Swiss are more realistic that firearms are deadly weapons rather than magickal objects.

    Firearms owners urban legends aside.

    BTW, Since January 2010, former service members are required to obtain a permit to buy their weapon, and must provide some justification for keeping the gun.

    Here are the figures:
    Gun Death and Injury

    Number of Homicides (any method)
    In Switzerland, annual homicides by any means total

    2010: 53
    2009: 51
    2008: 54
    2007: 51
    2006: 60
    2005: 75
    2004: 79
    2003: 73
    2002: 86
    2000: 69
    1999: 89
    1998: 76
    1997: 87
    1996: 83
    1995: 82

    Rate of Homicide per 100,000 People (any method)
    In Switzerland, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is

    2010: 0.70
    2009: 0.67
    2008: 0.71
    2007: 0.68
    2006: 0.80
    2005: 1.01
    2004: 2.95
    2003: 2.59
    2002: 2.92
    2001: 2.42
    2000: 0.96
    1999: 1.25
    1998: 1.07
    1997: 1.23
    1996: 1.17
    1995: 1.16
    1994: 1.32

    Number of Gun Homicides
    In Switzerland, annual firearm homicides total

    2010: 40
    2009: 55
    2008: 18
    2007: 35
    2006: 34
    2005: 48
    2004: 57
    2003: 47
    2002: 68
    2001: 47
    2000: 40
    1999: 72
    1998: 66

    Rate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People
    In Switzerland, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is

    2010: 0.52
    2009: 0.72
    2008: 0.24
    2007: 0.46
    2006: 0.45
    2005: 0.64
    2004: 0.79
    2003: 0.65
    2002: 0.93
    2001: 0.65
    2000: 0.56
    1999: 1.01
    1998: 0.93
    1994: 0.58


    So, far from compulsory gun ownership for all males--only those in the military. That has not been universal service for some time and one can perform nonmilitary service. In fact, there was a popular initiative aiming at the complete dissolution of the military in 1989!

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  8. Laci the Dog,

    Why do you think that I disagree with you on this point? I know that the Swiss gun laws have been getting stricter for a while. My point is that some uninformed gun rights people name Switzerland as a good example. I don't go along with that. The Swiss are genuine Europeans.

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  9. In fact, there was a popular initiative aiming at the complete dissolution of the military in 1989!

    Popular or populist,

    On 26 November 1989, 68.6% of eligible voters cast their ballot, resulting in 1,052,218 (35.6%) votes for the initiative.

    Man that is some spin.....

    This initiative loses by almost 2:1, and they put up 4 more referendums and all of them are defeated, that makes it/them popular?

    Hardly.

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  10. "This initiative loses by almost 2:1, and they put up 4 more referendums and all of them are defeated, that makes it/them popular?

    Hardly.

    November 11, 2011 12:48 AM"

    And what percentage of U.S. citizens belong to the NRA?

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  11. Laci, Does that mean the US has 10 times the gun homicides?

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  12. Switzerland is awash in gunz and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAy safer than the U.S. or U.K.

    Somalia is awash in gunz and is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more dangerous than the U.S., the U.K. or most other countries. But it IS a capitalist libertarian paradise; you can have all of the freedom and property that you can protect with your gunz. I hear that the boating there is superb.

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  13. Does that mean the US has 10 times the gun homicides?

    Switzerland has a population that is slightly smaller than NYC. That seems to be lost in the myth surrounding Switzerland.

    So, the difference in population size results in a difference in the amount of gun deaths. So, 40 gun homicides in 2010 equals 0.50 per 100k. Compare that to 9,484 gun homicides in the US during 2008 for a rate of 3.12 per 100k.

    Thomas shows hs ignorance:
    Popular--
    3.
    of, pertaining to, or representing the people, especially the common people: popular discontent.
    4.
    of the people as a whole, especially of all citizens of a nation or state qualified to participate in an election: popular suffrage; the popular vote; popular representation.
    5.
    prevailing among the people generally: a popular superstition.

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  14. God the Somolia meme is amazingly funny the 50th time around.

    I'll see your libertarian/capitalist Somolia and raise you comunist/socialist SOUTH AFRICA....

    So what do you think.....

    South Africa is a gun controller's wet dream guns are strictly regulated and has fewer Illicit Firearms per capita than......

    Croatia
    Germany
    Kosovo
    Norway
    Portugal
    Serbia
    and Sweden,

    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/166/estimated_rate_of_illicit_firearms_per_100_population/136,149,159,46,96,69,177

    with at least a 70-280 times the muder rate.....

    But it is a comunist/socialist/gun-fearing wussies utopia shithole; you have all the same failed gun policies that the above countries have none of the freedom to protect life and property that you have in the US.

    And I hear that the Farming there is superb.

    http://afrikaner-genocide-achives.blogspot.com/2011/02/farm-murders-victim-names-1994-2011_10.html

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  15. And what percentage of U.S. citizens belong to the NRA?

    at least x5 more per capita that the 20,000 that this group claims on their website.....

    And it seems the NRA is more effective....

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  16. Tommy,Tommy,Tommy:

    Why do you insist on being such a cementhead?

    You raise the issue of "popular" v "populist" and then tell me that the NRA has at least 100,000 members (I think the last guesstimate by people in a position to be at least semi-accurate was something like 3,000,000) and yet that pissed off tail wags the dog that is american LGO's? Now, THAT, is populism.

    South Africa has just a few illegal weapons. Hmmmm, your link doesn't go to anything that I see supporting your assertions. There are over 635 articles under the heading of South Africa, here (http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/search/?l=South+Africa&start=80), lots of them about stolen guns and the authorities attempts to get them back.

    S. Africa has draconian gun laws which, it appears, they have not had a lot of success implementing. Due to the availability of guns form a number of bordering countries it is impossible to know how many guns are in the country with any degree of certainty. Nice try, though.

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  17. You raise the issue of "popular" v "populist" and then tell me that the NRA has at least 100,000 members (I think the last guesstimate by people in a position to be at least semi-accurate was something like 3,000,000) and yet that pissed off tail wags the dog that is american LGO's? Now, THAT, is populism.

    Pay attention you stupid unwashed hippie.....

    The sad little GSoA - Group for a Switzerland without an Army boasts, "Currently, the group has around 20'000 members and supporters.....

    http://gsoa.ch/english/

    Per capita that would be a membership of 857,142 in the USA, the NRA has 4,300,000 members....

    5 times per capita membership....




    NCIS performed 10,000,000 gun checks per year from NOV1998 to OCT2011

    That's 130,000,000 million guns.

    So there are probably close to 100,000,000 gun owners the US.

    and 400,000,000 guns....

    You cannot win.


    South Africa has just a few illegal weapons. Hmmmm, your link doesn't go to anything that I see supporting your assertions. There are over 635 articles under the heading of South Africa, here (http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/search/?l=South+Africa&start=80), lots of them about stolen guns and the authorities attempts to get them back.

    Why would the SA.gov lie?

    Yeah I am sure that SA gun problems are all the fault of its neighbors...

    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/122/rate_of_homicide_any_method/166,25,206,120,101

    S. Africa has draconian gun laws which, it appears, they have not had a lot of success implementing. Due to the availability of guns form a number of bordering countries it is impossible to know how many guns are in the country with any degree of certainty. Nice try, though.

    Socialists and communists having trouble implementing laws, um-possible..... Laws make you safer, just write a new law.... sure helped the farmers down there didn't it....

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  18. Thanks Laci. The homicide rate in the US is 7 times that of Switzerland.

    That's America, home of the Proud and Free or is it the Free and the Brave?

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  19. Tommy:

    Whatever are we going to do with you. That's the second time you've called me a hippie, and stupid and unwashed this time. Fuck you, you cowardly gun toting piece of shit.

    The SA police, by every account I've read have a very difficult time keeping their own guns, never mind knowing with any certainty how many guns are in the country, legal or otherwise.

    These:

    "NCIS performed 10,000,000 gun checks per year from NOV1998 to OCT2011

    That's 130,000,000 million guns.

    So there are probably close to 100,000,000 gun owners the US.

    and 400,000,000 guns...."

    are assertions, not statistics, dipshit, you really want to learn the difference if you're going to get into arguments. You said something the other day about people making assumptions and yet you assume that your opinion carries the weight of fact. Sorry, Tommy, no traceable figures, no win for the gunzloonz.

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  20. Democommie,

    Ten million gun checks a year for thirteen years doesn't necessarily equal 130,000,000 guns, since many of those guns could have been trades or sold by their owners to gun shops and then bought by someone else. Nevertheless, your numbers are encouraging. No matter how hard your side tries, there are too many of us and too many guns to achieve your goals.

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  21. So, in the end, Greg Camp, you always fall back on the same justification for having the gunz--because we can beat you wimps without gunz anytime we want to.

    I'm not interested in seeing gunz confiscated by the state, but I think it would be hilarious to watch the gunzloonz turn themselves into pretzels if such a thing was ever seriously considered at the federal level.

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